Welcome to Getting Granular

Jack of all trades, master of search marketing. Steve talks with Matt about how he got into his role here at Granular and everything he does here. If you know Granular, you have probably met Steve. Tune in and listen to his story!

SHOW NOTES

What you’ll learn in this episode of Getting Granular:

• Steve’s tenure at Granular search (:59)
• What his role as VP entails (1:44)
• How Steve started working at Granular (3:15)
• How he got into the PPC industry (6:40)
• What got him hooked on PPC (11:10)
• Interested in learning search since the age of 17 (16:34)
• Shares his approach to bringing on new clients (21:08)
• Approach to educating clients (25:54)
• What keeps him at Granular (32:40)

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

Narrator: Welcome to Getting Granular, the podcast for digital marketing experts from the agency, Granular, talk about the latest trends, tried and true best practices and share their unfiltered thoughts about the industry. Whether you’re here to learn how to grow your business, improve your digital skills, or just want to hear some Midwest PPC experts rants about digital media. You’ve come to the right place.

Matt: Welcome to the Getting Granular podcast. My name is Matt Freter. I am the Marketing Operations Manager here at Granular. And today we’re going to be interviewing the VP of Granular. His name is Steve Kroll. What’s up, Steve?

Steve: Hey, what’s going on, Matt?

Matt: Not too much. Happy to finally get you in the recording booth. We’ve done a bunch of interviews with the Granular team, but haven’t quite talked to you yet. So we’re excited. So how long have you been working at Granular?

Steve: Let’s see. So I started in December 2015 on a contract basis and went full-time March of 2016. So just celebrated three years last month.

Matt: So three years at Granular, that’s almost the entire lifetime of the company. So were you one of the first, two or three hires?

Steve: Yeah. So I guess it depends on how we technically count it, but I think I would have been the third full-time person that was hired here at Granular.

Matt: So let’s talk about your role here. Mainly most of the Granular team is focused on managing the day-to-day PPC and paid media accounts of our clients. You have kind of a different role. You want to kind of speak to that?

Steve: Sure. So my title’s Vice President. In terms of what my roles and responsibilities amount to, functionally, it’s overseeing sales, direct sales. People get in touch with Granular, they want to figure out how can we work with the expert team at Granular. Typically, the first person they’re speaking to, to understand their needs, what their experiences with digital and putting together a plan with them and our team, getting them onboarded.

Steve: I also manage relationships with our different channel partners like Google and Microsoft in their Bing team. And I also work closely with our founder, Jordon Meyer, and you on our marketing. So that’s hosting events at Granular, figuring out strategy for exhibiting at events, doing PR for Granular, helping to devise strategy for marketing initiatives, radio advertising, digital ads, things like that.

Matt: You definitely touched on it. I do work very closely with Steve and Jordon myself. So Steve and I, we’re kind of the, I guess, the black sheep of Granular. We’re the only two people that are focused on marketing and sales and all that kind of stuff. So we kind of have a different perspective.

Matt: So I always like to talk about how people kind of got to Granular and you’re kind of route into pay-per-click and in this kind of world. Let’s kind of talk about your background in digital and paid media and PPC.

Steve: Sure. So a bit of a different path, I guess, than others. So if we start from what you’d mentioned as far as what I was doing immediately prior to joining Granular, I was actually running my own business-to-business software startup that I was building. And I think I was one of the first people in the Milwaukee area to reach out to Jordon when he started Granular. We were actually connected on LinkedIn when I saw that it was announced Jordon Meyer is now the founder and president of Granular marketing. So I looked up his email address, sent him an email. This would have been in December, 2014, which I now know is the month that he formally started and moved back to Milwaukee, and offered to buy him lunch.

Steve: And at the time I had on my mind that I was trying to sell him to be a customer of my software company. And so I remember meeting with him at the barbecue place. I won’t call them out specifically because I have a not-so-positive view of the food. And the North Shore of Milwaukee, we went to a barbecue place and Jordon could have pretty quickly discerned… If he would have been judging my quality of good product based on my food recommendation, I don’t think we would have had a subsequent conversation. But I just pick the halfway point between downtown Milwaukee and Mequon, which is where he was working out of at the time, and got to meet. And it was just him at the time working out of his client’s office and just kept in touch throughout that first year he was in business.

Matt: So you go from kind of working on your own startup your own, I guess it was kind of a SAS model, right?

Steve: Yeah. So it was a company called Dibber. And prior to that, I worked at… I guess, to rewind, I was connected with Jordon on LinkedIn, before I had been connected for six, seven years. We’d been connected for that long because previously I had spent time running a search marketing agency here in town, overseeing our pay-per-click and SEO practice. So I think at the time when I reached out to him, it probably would have been 2011, around that timeframe. I think I was just connecting with anyone in Milwaukee who was working as a pay-per-click practitioner, just with the mindset that if we were looking to hire and grow our team there, that Jordon would be someone I would look to hire. I think shortly after I’d connected with him or before he had moved to Minneapolis to take a job with Best Buy, so that was out of the cards. But that’s how we knew each other was back from when I worked at that agency.

Steve: And so when I was at my software company, prior to that, I worked for Generator, which is a local business accelerator similar to 500 startups or Y Combinator. They make seed angel investments in early stage companies that would get them off the ground. So I was entrepreneur in residence there. I was doing some freelance consulting work for a buddy of mine out in San Francisco at a software company to help him with some sales and marketing. And then before that I had spent four years running that search marketing agency that I referenced earlier.

Matt: A jack of all trades with a focus in kind of search marketing. I want to kind of touch on, so you were working at another agency kind of heading up the search marketing side of things. I always like to ask people that have been working in the industry for awhile, what did these kind of state of pay-per-click paid media look like when you first started?

Steve: Sure. So I actually started in this industry, in 2005, when I was in high school still. I had an uncle who worked from home and had his own Internet hosting company, and I’d always wanted to have my own website. My dad had a carpet cleaning business and relied on me to help them get online. So I had to help him learn how to build a website, get on WordPress. And doing that allowed me to kind of gain a curiosity of how websites on the Internet made money. And a lot of the ways that they made money was through ads.

Steve: And so I wanted to figure out how that all worked. And man, it was really me learning about search engine optimization, first SEO, which got me to understand paper-per-click, because I would build these mini sites. I would put Google Ads on them AdSense, So display network ads. Signed up to be an Amazon affiliate. And then I would do SEO to get traffic to my website. People would click the Google Ads and I would get a share of those dollars. And then I also would get money from Amazon when someone would click on my affiliate link and then go on to purchase a product.

Steve: So I’ve been exposed to how this all worked for a while, as far as how it’s changed and evolved on the pay-per-click side. I think that the main areas where it’s changed have been as it’s become more commercial, as the companies that were operating these pay-per-click platforms, Google being the main one, but back in the day, Yahoo and there are a lot of other third party publishers, some of them have now been acquired or they’re now defunct, is they’re just closer regulation, more consumer protection in place.

Steve: There’s a lot more like the wild West as far as how advertisers could get away with doing things that were technically in the gray area, from how they utilize special characters to the type of pages they would send traffic to that the user was kind of trapped on the website. They couldn’t navigate away from it. Really, the only thing they can do is convert on the page, getting rid of chained redirects. So if someone sees a URL that says example.com and then they go to a website, and now they’re redirected three different times to a different URL.

Steve: There’s just also been a big change around the time that Facebook really came to the market and really matured their advertising product because it really pushed pay-per-click advertising forward from the standpoint of allowing advertisers to target based on behavior, as well as targeting based on demographic information. Before, you would just target keywords in search, and on the display side, you can target specific websites based on content or certain categories. And you had very, very basic controls for targeting users. And that’s really where I’ve seen it change is now with the prevalence of social media and with devices, advertisers can serve really tailored ads. Machine learning allows agencies like Granular to develop ads and messaging and funnels that are really customized to each user, where before it was a little more basic.

Matt: That’s a great breakdown of kind of the history of it. Because you started really early kind of just completely messing around with it and not knowing what’s going on. I mean, I remember having a blog years ago and I put AdSense on it and I thought it was the best thing in the world. I’m like, oh, I’m going to make money off of this. What was it about PPC that made you want to kind of keep going and stick with it?

Steve: It’s interesting. Again, I got into this space more from a search engine optimization perspective. So obviously when you go to Google, you perform a search today. Up to four results at the top can be paid ads. And then depending on the type of search, if it’s a regional search, they could show a map and then you’re going to get 10 organic results, and may be up to four ads at the bottom.

Steve: For me, it was I was attracted to search engine marketing because I was always attracted to the intersection of commerce and helping provide solutions to people who had a problem that they wanted solved or they were looking for a solution. And I just saw just from my personal experience my ability to find an answer to a question just through Googling on my own. I just thought it was really powerful, the businesses who could pick up on how to cater to the user based on what they’re searching, where they’re at in the funnel. And I was really obsessed with kind of that higher funnel people who didn’t really know a brand. It’s a little different if someone is searching for a Nike shoes, for instance, versus if they’re searching for the best type of shoes to play basketball outside. I was more attracted to those types of queries, why Google chose to rank certain websites.

Steve: And as far as my exposure to the paid side, that really didn’t start till I joined the agency that was focused on search marketing. That was really my first exposure to search advertising. A lot of the advertising I had been exposed to is more on the display network side from operating my own websites and I would do my own advertising. But again, this would be more display ad oriented, and it was really eyeopening to see that you could kind of show up in Google for certain keywords in one of two ways. You could either, what I would call, “earn” your way to the top spot or you could pay to get there. But pay legitimately because it was the best user experience and Google determined that, hey, we think you’re relevant enough that we’re okay taking your money for this search.

Steve: And I thought that was really interesting that you could have, to the user, they might see an ad and before it was a lot more of a clear distinction of what an ad was versus what an organic result was. But even then, to the user who is performing a search, they don’t think that they’re seeing an ad, I just thought it was really interesting that you could have two disciplines within digital marketing, and specifically within search marketing SEO and pay-per-click advertising that can look so similar to one another, but you could have such a strong diversion in terms of the types of person, the type of individual who is a practitioner in that space, what activities went into serving advertisers in that space versus organizations you’re helping SEO with. Just seeing the immediacy of the response and the impact you can have.

Steve: I really was drawn to a pay-per-click advertising being a spot where you can’t really fake how effective you are. There’s a real credit card tied to the account, or if you’re being invoiced, that’s all being tracked. And if you didn’t really have someone who was knowledgeable, who knew what they were doing, you could lose a lot of money very quickly where SEO was less accountable from a dollars-in dollars-out standpoint. So I thought that was really interesting to me.

Matt: You often hear that about SEO where it’s like, that’s kind of like this black box theory. And you even sometimes hear that about paid search is that some people are kind of black box about it. But what it really comes down to is, do you have somebody that knows what they’re doing or do they not know what they’re doing? You’re right. There is a credit card there. There’s a change history and all that kind of stuff.

Matt: I really like what you were talking about, how you were interested in that kind of top-level search of, okay, maybe I’m not looking for Nike shoes. I’m looking for the best shoes for running long distance, or I’m looking for the best basketball shoes for playing outside. And those are very, very specific queries and people are looking for very specific answers. But then there’s the kind of that second level of, okay, now you kind of answered their question. Now they’re looking for a couple brands now. It’s like, okay, I got to have a campaign for when they do search for Nike, because that person came from that original search.

Matt: I’ve always like kind of that funnel approach and how search can touch every part of the funnel. I know you talk about that a lot. I don’t know if you want to kind of speak more to that.

Steve: So from the time I started helping my dad back in 2005, try and help his carpet cleaning website show up in Google when people type in carpet cleaner, carpet cleaners near me, best carpet cleaning company in Milwaukee, all that. I always felt like if you really spend enough time Googling and searching and clicking on links, you could intuit what Google valued for different types of searches. And again, I was spending probably from the age of 17 until, I want to say my early 20s, kind of after college, right before I started working for that other agency, I was spending, I don’t know, probably 8, 9, 10, 11 hours a day just Googling stuff, and clicking links, and trying to understand what does Google value for a certain search.

Steve: And I feel like a lot of individuals who work in search marketing doing SEO or doing paid, they put so much energy into trying to analyze all of the… I guess it’d be the argument like in basketball, the eye test versus the analytics where you can arrive to the same conclusion, but at the end of the day, if someone is really good at putting the ball in the hoop… I’m going to use the basketball metaphor. If someone’s really good at putting the ball in the hoop at a high percentage, and they don’t really get blocked on dunks, and they don’t get scored on a lot, you’re going to see that with the eye test. And the data’s also going to support that.

Steve: In the same way when you do Google searches and you see which ads consistently show up high, you see which results in websites seem to show up, you can really intuit, hey, this company or this advertiser is able to successfully infer the user’s intent based on where they’re at in the funnel, based on if they have no idea what they’re looking for, if they have some idea what they’re looking for, if they’re pretty sure they know what they want, and they’re narrowing it down to companies versus if they’re looking to buy from a specific company and they’re just trying to figure it out if they can get a discount on it.

Steve: I feel like if you do enough of those searches and you really look at it, you can get a good idea of what Google values. And at the end of the day, what Google values is a as frictionless and as authentic and aboveboard user experience as possible. And so that’s making sure the site loads fast. That’s making sure that the information isn’t hidden behind a number of links in having to register. Of course, for any search result, you’re going to have some companies who figured out how to arbitrage just to try and show up in Google. But I think that’s not as sustainable of a model. And for me, I feel like that’s what has allowed me to be successful in this industry, talking to all sorts of different businesses. Because in my role at Granular, I’m trying to understand the companies that are contacting us, who is their audience? How is their audience performing a search? What websites are they going to when? They’re on social media, what sort of content are they engaging with?

Steve: And then thinking through the client that we’re working with, what is the makeup of their team? What’s the makeup of our team? How can we either augment or enhance their efforts internally? Or if they have very limited ability to do digital marketing, how can we put together that strategy and execute it for them? And so that’s always been my approach, is focus on the user. If you spend enough time really paying attention, you can figure out what Google cares about.

Matt: Steve you’re in the unique position of handling a lot of the inbound clients. So when someone calls us, walks in the door, sometimes that actually happens, ends up filling out a form on our site in some way, shape, or form, they come to Granular and they’re looking for help in their digital marketing. So you’re in the unique position. You talk to these people pretty much on a daily basis. What’s your approach on kind of bringing in a new client or even kind of the process of vetting out somebody that’s just getting in contact with us?

Steve: Sure. So to start, I think the first thing that’s important is to have a mindset of being present no matter who the person is and the format that they’re communicating with us, whether that’s filling out a form, phone call, meeting in person, site chat, is to try and be present and to not have the person that we’re talking to feel like we’re not interested in them. I feel like a lot of organizations mess that part up. They kind of prequalify if someone is a good fit for them or not, based on first impressions. We might have some instincts, one or the other, but we try and treat everyone we can with respect. Reply to them in a timely manner. Make sure that we’re engaged and present.

Steve: The second thing is making sure that we’re just doing a good job of asking questions and listening. And the type of questions we ask, regardless if someone is selling products on their website, they have a service that they’re offering to consumers, if they are a brand that’s looking to get more awareness, at the end of the day, we want to ask, what led you to contact us? What are you hoping to accomplish in this meeting? Tell us about why you thought it was a good idea to get in touch with Granular and what questions we can answer for you.

Steve: I think a lot of times the instinct is to just start talking about ourselves. I’ve been guilty of it, for sure. Just getting into, here’s who we are, here’s what we do, especially if the person we’re speaking to is pretty short with their words. And they don’t really want to get into why they got in touch with us. But I’ll just try and phrase the question in a different way. Because at the end of the day, I want the person we’re talking to, to tell us who they are, where they’re looking to drive traffic to, if it’s a website, if it’s an app, if it’s a social media profile, a video. And then what type of users they’re trying to get to that website or that end destination, and what actions they want them to take.

Steve: And of course from there, we can get into what their experience level is with pay-per-click advertising. Do they have existing pay-per-click accounts like Google Ads and LinkedIn Ads and Facebook Ads? Or are they looking to get into it for the first time? And really my goal in any conversation we have is to be able to triage and understand who’s the person I’m speaking to? What is their role in relation to their pay-per-click advertising. What’s the composition of their team, whether that’s internal or if they augment with an agency? And then what’s their timeline of when they’re looking to gather more information in order to make a decision?

Steve: We have people who contact us who they currently are engaged with another agency and they’re just looking to get quotes. There’s other people who they’ve never even spent a penny on pay-per-click advertising, but they’ve heard about it. They’ve seen Granular somewhere. They want to learn more about how it works, and then we have everything in between.

Steve: And so for me, it’s before we start getting into listing prices and talking about us, it’s trying to understand what led them to contact us, because at the core, usually people are contacting us because they view pay-per-click advertising as a solution to be a painkiller. It’s something that they’ve had some pain, whether it’s they want to drive more leads or it’s super… I’ll be more specific. If they’ve historically relied on it to generate leads for them and sales, and now it’s performing much worse, and they need to bring us in because that needs to be fixed, and they’re spending too much on it, and they don’t know what’s happening. Or they look at it as a vitamin, something that can help grow their business. They’ve been successful through other channels or they’ve had success with pay-per-click, specifically in now they’re looking to us to figure out, how do we turn the dial and take it to the next level?

Matt: Something that I know you and I are both working on is the concept of educating clients, not only current ones, but new inbound clients. There’s a lot of jargon that goes into what we do, PPC, RSA, ETA, blah, blah, blah. It’s like an alphabet soup. And even if you know a lot about digital marketing, you might be a little lost when it comes to paid media, the kind of stuff that we do. What’s your kind of approach to educating clients and really kind of explaining what the hell we do?

Steve: Sure. There are a number of schools of thoughts when it comes to the type of buyer that organizations like to sell to. And speaking from my personal philosophy, I prefer an educated and empowered buyer who understands very well what we do, even if they don’t understand all of the specifics of how it works. But if they can explain what we do to other colleagues, both across from them, below and above, for me, that’s a great sign just in terms of that means they’re going to be effective at being able to advocate to continue to do the advertising, and in turn, being able to advocate for keeping Granular engaged.

Steve: And so from an education standpoint, with Granular, we have people who contact us, like I mentioned, who are all ends of the spectrum, and we have people who they have some vague familiarity with how what we do works. Maybe they’ve been at other organizations that have relied on Google Ads.

Steve: But for the most part, every person we speak to, they are at different points along the spectrum of their knowledge of how it works. And I think the importance of content marketing and educating through seminars, webinars, podcasts, blog content, email marketing, is not only are you educating the end user, in this case, if we’re speaking to business owners or marketing managers, heads of e-commerce, brand managers, etc. So yes, we’re educating them on kind of how this works.

Steve: We’re also demonstrating Granular’s philosophy and approach because our thought process and approach for what standard best practices are, everything from what the best approach is when setting up the account structure for Google Ads, to how many images you should be using in a LinkedIn Ads campaign, to can you get away with just using the responsive format for display ads in Google? Or do you actually need to develop the 15 plus formats?

Steve: The value of explaining all of that from a Granular perspective, in addition to it provides an immediate solution to that end user, it also shows them, look, Granular is not just showing us the answer. They’re showing us the math of how they arrive there. And they’re showing versus telling that they’re knowledgeable. And by the way, that they’re helpful, that there’s someone who can help, again, explain this to me. I feel like I’m getting to know them without having to talk to them. The great value of producing content in different formats, written, video, audio, is we are catering to the end client based on what their preference is. And the best way that they learn to be able to help them be more educated when it comes to how digital marketing works.

Steve: At the end of the day, from a business perspective, the hypothesis is it’s a good business move, of course, because again, going back to my previous part that I was referencing, if we can educate that end client on how what we do works, the value of it, the downside of stopping digital advertising, then they’re able to communicate that to their peers, to the people that report to them, and then the people that they report to.

Steve: And a lot of other firms prefer the style of, trust me, we’re really, really smart. What we do is really, really hard. You have to continue to pay us because otherwise you’re going to be in a whole lot of trouble if you don’t. Don’t worry about how difficult it is. That’s why you pay us a fee.

Steve: Again, that’s just not the way we like to operate. Some people view it as you’re giving away a lot of free advice and free content. I feel like that helps self-select out the audience. There’s always going to be a certain percentage of buyers who aren’t looking to hire a firm. They want to do it themselves. They want to hire freelancers. They want to build out their own team. Maybe they hand the content that we produce to their current agency partner. Those people were never really going to be customers anyways, but the net gain of getting us in front of other people who otherwise wouldn’t have known about us because they’ve discovered our content through SEO, through paid advertising, through social channels, through email marketing, the pros far outweigh the cons, in my opinion.

Matt: I like that. It’s like networking where it’s even if you have someone that comes in, they’re interested and we do our job in educating them. And then they’re able to make a really informed decision of, okay, I’m going to hire them or, okay, I don’t need this. Because if they come on and they actually don’t need it and we didn’t do our job explaining, then we’re going to have a bad relationship with this client. And if they’re educated and they say, oh, maybe this isn’t right for me, or it’s not right for me right now, they leave knowing who we are, what we do, why we do it. So that if they have a friend that also works in a different industry and he’s saying, oh man, I’m really, really looking for somebody that can do PPC. Do you know anybody? Oh yeah. Well, I just was talking to these Granular guys. It’s the more education you can do, it’s only going to help. It can’t hurt.

Matt: Sometimes it kind of comes off as, oh, you guys are doing all this free work. But at the end of the day, the more education everybody has, the better it’s going to be for everybody.

Steve: For sure.

Matt: Steve, you’ve been here for three years. You’re have one of the longest tenures of anybody at Granular. What do you like about Granular? What keeps you here?

Steve: So I’ll rattle off a couple of things. Again, I didn’t prepare anything in advance, so going off the top of the dome.

Steve: So I would say the first thing is working at a workplace that values my skillset I bring to the table and allows me to utilize it in making sure that it’s aligned with business goals, which is growth. I really appreciate that. And from my experience, people who work at organizations where their role is clearly defined, they know the work that they do, the impact that it has on the organizations, and it’s importance to the shareholders and the organization, in this case, Jordon and his partners.

Steve: For me, knowing that my focus is helping find and retain great clients that we can provide digital advertising services to, and make sure that we’re continually providing value. And then making sure that we’re doing a good job of broadcasting, that work we’re doing and our expertise through the various marketing channels. At the core, that’s my role. I really appreciate that that’s very clear for me.

Steve: I appreciate, number two, that the big picture responsibilities are laid out, but the path and how to arrive on that destination of generate more revenue by finding more clients, taking care of clients, that that’s left up to me to kind of propose and work collaboratively with Jordon and you on the best way to get there. So there’s nothing in our operating plan that says, we’re going to generate new sales through networking with certain businesses or exhibiting at events, or producing podcasts. But it aligns with the bigger picture goal of what activities can we do that support driving new business and helping add value to existing clients.

Steve: And so I think that’s, for a curious and active mind like myself, who I have no shortage of ideas, no shortage of interesting people to meet and businesses to find to work with, I think that Granular was a great environment for that.

Steve: I would say the third thing is being able to be in a role where I don’t have to have any doubts on the quality of the work our team does or the method in which they accomplish those results. There’s a lot of organizations that they care only about generating revenue for themselves, and they care more about the bottom line than how ethical they are with the work that they do for our clients. I appreciate the fact that everyone that we work with here at Granular, they operate with a white hat mentality. They care deeply about their clients. They care about each other on the team.

Steve: It’s an open environment where people share ideas and everything from best practices when it comes to ad copy testing, to if people discover a a new tool that they’re using to solve a certain problem, there’s no hesitation to share. That it’s easy to take that for granted. In other workplaces, you have people who are a little more guarded with kind of their little tricks and secrets, and they view that as if they give that up, they’re taking away an advantage. And I think the type of culture that Jordon’s been able to create and foster here, it really rewards sharing, it rewards taking care of clients, making sure that we’re doing great work for them and not trying to deceive clients or to inflate the work that we’re doing.

Steve: I think that’s really important for me. I couldn’t really find myself working at a place where the numbers were just great, revenue was great, but the quality of the product or service was really questionable. And you’re having to lean on ironclad contracts to prevent angry people who maybe felt misled from suing you. I know there’s other organizations who offer services similar to Granular’s who operate that way. That’s not us.

Steve: So I would say that’s a big part of, again, there’s a number of other great reasons to work here. Obviously, being able to work in the Third Ward, being someone who loves to play ping pong, being able to do all these different things that are culture oriented. But the main things are do I respect my colleagues? Do I respect the leadership? Do I value the work that we’re doing for our clients? Do I really appreciate our clients? Those are the important things for me. And all the other stuff, obviously, is important too. But if I had to boil it down.

Matt: I like the way you put it. There’s a lot of white hat that goes on around here, definitely both inside the internal and on the external. Internally we have the white hat of we’re going to share any resources that we have with each other. There’s not going to be this internal competition. And then externally, we’re not having these crazy iron clad contracts so that if we do shoddy work, they can’t get out of it. And I kind of call it, it’s like the sleep at night factor. It’s I can go to bed feeling like I did a good job in the company that I work with. That was a good job. We’re not screwing people over. So I feel the same way about Granular. It’s funny because you always hear these problems in pay-per-click, those stories are a dime a dozen. But knowing that Granular is here and that we can sleep at night, that’s always kind of a great factor.

Matt: Thanks for listening to the Getting Granular podcast and our interview here with Steve Kroll. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on any of the PPC tips, tricks, or news from the digital marketing world. This is your host, Matt Freter, and thanks for getting Granular with us today.